CBS 21 Community

Dauby19:

I started reading all the many responses and decided that, one... some people are heartless cause even if this is about roadsde memorials,some of the comments were very unnessesary,people just lost a son,a brother,an uncle,a granchild,a nephew,a boyfriend and a friend and they are greiving,it hurts to lose someone you love and comments other than your opinon on roadside memorials are very disrespectful some of you need to grow up..second.. i realize its not going to matter what you or i have to say,if you did not go to the little meeting where the township agreed to it ,who are you to say it dosent belong and if you dont know the area and realize its not on their property then maybe you need to get the facts first and yes it might be a reminder to them but they will eventualy be able to get over it and get on with their lives,it wont be so easy for the labes to do that,i feel the main cause of this whole thing was the people that live there took it upon themselves to take it down,they could have had a heart and conntacted the labes and come up with a compromise... them taking this in their own hands was wrong,i am all for it and it dosent matter if your christian or catholic or atheist,whatever your choice is, we all have hearts and we all lose someone at some point in our lives ,we all greif differently so put yourself a side for once and think of how other people feel...RIP Mikey!!!!

Look, this is a tragic situation.  I don't think any person posting here---Christian, Wiccan, Atheist, Jew, whatever---wouldn't want to bring Mikey back if we could.  But we can't.

What ALL of us can do is something that can PREVENT similar accidents in the future and save other families from this grief.

In May 2006, I happened to be driving near Rt. 581 when a trucker crushed and incinerated a totally innocent young woman who was stuck in a line of traffic.  I arrived on the scene just as the fire crew arrived.  It was awful.  And I got angry, and a group of us have decided to do something about it.  (You'll probably be hearing about it in the coming months.)

While the cause of Mikey's accident may not be known yet, there's probably some way to at least TRY to prevent future such accidents.  Rather than a piece of wood on someone else's lawn, wouldn't it be a greater legacy to Mikey to establish some kind of fund or organization, or perhaps donations to an existing organzation?   And, if you haven't done so already, why not establish a website about Mikey, where we can actually learn more about him directly from his friends and family, and where we can donate to a good cause?

Also, everyone needs to understand that the township did not have the right to give permission to establish religious monuments (or any non-highway fixture) on a private landowner's property, even the part within the highway right-of-way.  Not only can those monuments be offensive to people who do not share those religious beliefs, but such a monument could make the property difficult to sell, and, as I said earlier, justify an inverse condemnation suit against the township.

What is scariest of all in this debate is our children's (and some parents') lack of understanding of our basic rights under the constitution, namely, no governmental establishment of religion, and no taking of private property without just compensation.  Our public schools force a daily, religious "Pledge of Allegiance" on our kids, but they don't want to do the tougher job of teaching exactly what we are being allegiant to:  our wonderful Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights.

And again, if I had been the landowner, I *think* I would have handled the situation much more diplomatically and sensitively, but would not have allowed any permanent monument.  I don't understand why the landowner didn't at least call the township or the police and ask them to take the cross to the family, with a note of condolence and explaining his wishes.   As much as I detest crosses (and I don't see why people consider a cross to be a "comfort" when it's a replica of an ancient device of execution and torture.....If Jesus had been executed in an electric chair, would people be putting replicas of electric chairs along roadsides, and would that bring anyone "comfort"?), I still would have allowed the family to grieve at the site for a few days.

If the family insists on a permanent monument on that property, I would suggest they make the landowner an offer to buy all or part of the property.

First of, this is absolutely pathetic now. I know the family who removed the cross, and although they are close to my family it strongly upsets me knowing that they would do such a thing. I understand everybody has their own opinions, but being that the Labe's have the township's permission to put the memorial in place again this all needs to stop. I've read many of the comments on here and it's obvious that many of us are teenagers, and for that reason it's automatically assumed that we have no idea what we're talking about. Michael was a son, an uncle, a brother, a boyfriend, etc. and his family truly does miss him. I do believe that during the time of greiving one should be allowed to cope with their loss however they believe they need to do so. This is a very hard time for the Labe family, and it is very disrespectful to sit here and "bash" on them for making something in memory of the one they lost. This is nothing new to the media, so do not sit here and say that the family is only doing this for the attention. I remember hearing about this on the news months ago, and it SHOULD NOT be allowed. When you lose someone you do not want to deal with grief from others. Yes, it may have hurt the family seeing the cross outside of their home, but imagine the pain that Michael's family feels. They wake up everyone morning, knowing that they will no longer see Michael's face, they won't hear his jokes, see his smile, or even hear his voice. But what they do have are the memories of the 17 years that Michael was alive. I can not even begin to imagine what it would be like to lose a child of my own and I know for a fact that I would not want to try and cope with the loss of a loved one and all of this nonsense along with it. Stop with all of the nasty remarks now. The cross is going back up, with the permission of the township and sitting on here arguing back and forth is not going to prevent that from happening.

Last, to the Labe's, I truly am sorry for your loss. Michael was a great guy who could put a smile on anyones face no matter what the situation was. I'm sorry that you must deal with all of this during this time, and I hope that you're holding up the best that you can right now. Your family is in my prayers. Stay strong, and may God be with you.

ceisenhour:

Stop with all of the nasty remarks now. The cross is going back up, with the permission of the township and sitting on here arguing back and forth is not going to prevent that from happening.

If the township told you it was okay to place a bomb on the roadside, would you still do it?

If they still don't want to see the monument, I hope that the landowners (whose demeanor I don't necessarily condone) will find a lawyer who'll sue the township for violating their property rights by facilitiating the placement of religious monuments on private property where the township only has rights to operate a highway.

By the way, how about naming the township officials who are facilitating this?
Are they giving you legal advice?
If they are so sure that they are legally correct, are they actually going to join you in erecting the monument?  Or are they sitting back and letting *you* take the legal risks?  Have *you* contacted a lawyer about this?

I sure wouldn't want to be a Swatara Township taxpayer right now!

This is futile.

Posts are being deleted, I would imagine due to some crying to the administrator.

We can only hope that  these "officials" will wake up soon with egg on their collective faces.

I think some of these postings are way out of line.

First off, I can not image the pain of losing a child.   I knew Michael and as earlier posts stated.... he could put a smile on anyone's face at any time.  He was  a fun, crazy young man that lived life to the fullest and will be missed be everyone that knew him. 

I see both sides and like someone else mentioned, debating and arguing on here is not going to solve a thing but get everyone worked up and angry.

I agree that the property owners should have been asked if they minded if the cross was put up, BUT I also agree that they should not have pulled it out of the ground.  I fell they were just very insensitive to this whole situation. Yes, the Labes may be insensitive to the homeowners by not asking permission, but they are in shock and grieving over the lost of their son.  The homeowner could have waited a week or so and then approached the Labe family in regards to the matter.  I would hope the cross was returned to the family.

I think getting someone  in to talk to the students at the school about safe driving is a wonderful idea.  These students lost 2 friends last year in an automobile accident and this brings back painful memories of them as well.  Today kids have no fear and think nothing is going to happen to them and they need to wake up and realize these things happen and they need to be careful when driving. Instead of fighting over if the cross should be there or not that's try to think of something positive that can be done to educate these kids on driving safely and prevent another death.  I think Michael would agree with that.

 

Good bless the family they are in our hearts and prayers!

Wow!

This is nuts.  What the hell is wrong with WHP for setting up a web forum, creating the controversy and then deleting all the posts that differ from the opinion they assumed would happen.

Sorry if we think this family is wrong for forcing this RM on the unwilling recipeint, but for you to take down the opinions that differ from what you intended this to be is, well its to be expected from a Clear Channel Station I guess.

 

You should be ashamed.  Remember this when you clammer for some freedom of the press.

Wow!

I just looked and all my posts talking about the likelyhood of a lawsuit in this issue are GONE!

 

What do you think about Roadside Memorials?

I think this one is rediculous, and is going to wind up getting the township sued.

Read it while you can people Big Brother is striking down differing opinions left and right!

No it is not legal to take another's land without just compensation.  If this is a Swatara Ordinance that the mostly Republican Supervisors passed I guess it should be an issue in the next election.  As for the Cross being used, not everyone feels that it is a thing of worship.  The Township can not be supporting religious beliefs, we also have a Federal Establishment Clause.  Penna. Constitution is even more strenuous in protecting the imposition of religious views by government entities.

As for your prying into my life, get over it.  Our lives should be personal not public litter all over the landscape.  Oh, but that is the thing with many folks, the various government entities have had to pass anti-litter laws.  I am so glad that numerous persons pointed out the multitude of violations this sort of grief indulging involves and littering is certainly one of those violations.. 

As for the suggestion of planting a tree, I had a neighbor who hated me but she did ask if she could use my right of way to plant a tree in front of her trailer for a dead drug dealing son.  Since it was not something that caused me to have to clean leaves (it was a pine tree placed an acre away from my home) and they took it upon themselves to cut the grass around the tree, I gave permission.  Even a drug dealer is mourned by family and the road was not a busy road.  This situation is totally different because it is on a very busy road and a distraction and something the property owner will have to clean up or Swatara will send them threatening letters about the unkempt site.

Just to clarify- several posts have been deleted not for their opinions, but  for attacks and name calling to other community members.

This forum was created to discuss the general topic of roadside memorials, not to attack the familes on either side of the issue or "create a controversy."

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Melissa
Administrator

"I agree that the property owners should have been asked if they minded if the cross was put up, BUT I also agree that they should not have pulled it out of the ground.  I fell they were just very insensitive to this whole situation. Yes, the Labes may be insensitive to the homeowners by not asking permission, but they are in shock and grieving over the lost of their son.  The homeowner could have waited a week or so and then approached the Labe family in regards to the matter.  I would hope the cross was returned to the family."

You can't excuse one instance of insensitivity without excusing the other.  If the Labes are let off the hook, so should the property owner.

you go for it, yea, that is what is happening, a big bang; is that sarcasm about the car crashing or just about the discussion on the placing of a marker without permission from Penn Dot? Or is it going to be a bang when this is part of the case about unjust takings? 

Well, sorry if I was gruff.

First and foremost, the fact that WHP did this story was in fact what "Created a controversy" and let's face it, the publicity it generated is obviously not going the way that the family thought it would.

As for attacking the families, I did no such thing.  I attack the callous manner in which the CHILDREN( and I had no idea at first that they were, in fact, children) on this thread matter of factly, stated it was going abck up and there is nothing you can do about it.  When I realized the age of the posters, I apologised to one of the adults on the board for my offense.

I simply stated that the family expects sympathy and understanding and yet extends none to the heroic man who tried to save thier son.

Of all the political issues that face Americans, Private property rights are by far the one I am most passionate about.  If in debating that issue, my passion spilled over into something ugly, I apologise for the offense, although not for ANY of the content.

Plegal,

I doubt that this is actually a "takings" issue, but I see where you are coming from, and this does in fact fit the OP question.

If Swatara twp justifies allowing the RM on a public right of way, then I imaging anything goes in Swatara.  If the public right of way can be used for RM's despite the fact that it is still private property, then I guess I can place campaign sings, advertisments or just about any thing else up on the public right of way without asking the land owners permission.

So get out there and place Clinton and Obama signs on the property of every GOP supporter, and McCain or Huckabee(even funnier) signs on your favorite liberal's lawn.  According to the precident set by the township in this issue, it's fine as long as its the township right of way.

Plegal,

I checked Swatara Twp's web page, no ordinances listed.

Here is my further thinking on this.

If the justification to allow them to errect this monument is because it is a public right of way, and public right of way's need to remain open for the public to walk, then isn't this monument blocking the very right of way that is allowing its existance?

I hope that the twp realizes the huge mistake they have made and rectifies it before it does. 

If you live in Swatra Twp, you need to realize the implications of this.  If the 17' from the center line is on any of your property, the townships position is that somone can take your land and do with it as they wish.  Once you set a precedent like this, its hard and costly to undo, and you can't be descriminate about what you allow on a public right of way.  Legaly, if you allow an RM, you have to allow whatever else people see fit to place there.  At least that is what the highly paid lawyers for companies that wish to place advertising signs on the right of way in busy intersections will say.

 

Right now the question is how does the twp undo what was a gesture of kindness that they should have thought through.